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為何中歐國家傾向狹隘的民主?捷克作家Radka Denemarková專訪

Radka Denemarková在奧地利格拉茲,2019。照片授權r Namensvermerk/Stadt Graz/Foto Fischer free copyright license

Radka Denemarková是捷克文壇的奇特現象。她是唯一曾以不同文類(虛構、非虛構、翻譯與年度好書)四度獲得捷克文學最高榮譽「苦土文學獎」(Magnesia Litera Prize的作家,並且也因為作品的翻譯獲得國際上的文學獎而有更廣的讀者群。她最為知名的作品《希特勒的錢》(Money from Hitler,是關於一位戰後回到捷克斯洛伐克的猶太女孩基本權利被剝奪的故事。

Radka Denemarková成長於共產陣營統治下的捷克斯洛伐克,年輕時見證共產主義的瓦解與柏林圍牆的倒塌,這些事件是她寫作與公共事物參與的基礎,以及她為自己成長之地以及為中國民主發聲的根源。今年是捷克絲絨革命三十週年,全球之聲訪問她的中歐經驗,以及她對該地區以及全球政治的關切與期待。以下訪談內容經過扼要編輯。

Filip Noubel(以下簡稱「FN」):三十年前柏林圍牆倒塌後,對布拉格與柏林有很大的衝擊,當時你在共產陣營統治下的捷克斯洛伐克,剛開始就讀於查理士大學,妳對當時的反對運動與政治陣營的垮台有何感受?妳最大的擔憂與希望是什麼?

Radka Denemarková My greatest hope was to experience freedom. My greatest concern was to experience the brutality of power, and in general, of human nature. I recall three key moments. The Palach week in January 1989, when people were honoring the anniversary of Jan Palach’s immolation on Prague’s main Wenceslas Square. It was a silent gathering dispersed by water cannons. In October, my East German friend fled to free Germany via the West German Embassy in Prague along with thousands of other East Germans… The fall of the Berlin Wall was a happy moment. The third moment was when we slept at Charles University and the solidarity we experienced. The writer Bohumil Hrabal brought 100,000 Czechoslovak crowns in a backpack, which was a lot of money back then, and offered it to the students. I was happy for my father, for the fact he lived to witness freedom. In 1969 [after the 1968 Soviet invasion], he had saved a lot of forbidden books, which we kept at home in the basement and would lend to our closest friends. Keeping those books back then could lead to prison.

My biggest hope was that we would adopt the Western democratic values. Yet we drew a thick line with the past but this was a huge mistake not to immediately label culprits and victims. What we took from the West after 1989 was a model of consumerism, and not a democratic lifestyle.

Radka Denemarková(以下簡稱「RD」):

我最大的希望是要體驗自由,最擔心的是被權力迫害,因為這是普遍的人性。我最記得三件事,其一是1989年一月的帕拉赫紀念週,就是大家聚在布拉格最主要的瓦茨拉夫廣場紀念揚 ⋅ 帕拉赫。這個平靜的集會居然被水砲驅離。其二是,當年十月,我一位東德的朋友和其他數以千計的東德人經由位於布拉格的西德大使館逃到自由的德國,所以柏林圍牆的倒塌是令人鼓舞的時刻。其三是我們留守在查理士大學,感受團結的力量。作家博胡米爾·赫拉巴爾用背包帶給學生十萬克朗,當時這是不小的金錢。我也為我父親感到振奮,因為1969年(1968蘇俄入侵後)他救了很多禁書,我們把這些書藏在地下室,只借給最親密的朋友。當時保存這些書若被抓到是會被送入大牢的。

我最大的希望是能實踐西方民主價值。但與過去劃清界線且而未能洞察歷史的共犯與受害者,是一大錯誤。結果導致我們從西方輸入的只有消費主義,而非深化於生活裡的民主。

FN:今年是這些事件的三十週年,德國已經統一,捷克斯洛伐克已經不存在,分開的捷克與斯洛伐克都是歐盟的一部分。民主似乎勝利了,但近來的政治卻顯示趨向保守不開明,為什麼會這樣?

RD

Czech society is sick. What is worse, it refuses to get cured. The source of this state of mind is this eternal feeling that we are just a buffer zone between East and West. The vocabulary of totalitarianism is creeping back unnoticed, which is incredibly dangerous. Language reflects the current thinking. When democracy disappears, it doesn't happen day by day but centimeter by centimeter. We must maintain the positions we reached and fight for freedom. This requires a lot of efforts today.

The countries of Eastern Europe live in frustration. Victims and culprits became one. The people who have power are those who got rich during the wild years of capitalism in the 1990s, former agents of the Czechoslovak State Security, such as our current Prime Minister, people representing the former communist power, arrogant oligarchs. In Poland, the conservative Catholic Church also plays a huge role. All political leaders take Hungarian politician Viktor Orbán as an example, and imitate him, while he imitates Putin. Mentally, we are still satellites of Russia.

Hopefully we have some positive models in Eastern Europe, with the humanism of Masaryk and Havel. The reference I make to Masaryk's humanism is social empathy, as for Havel's humanism, it means to find in oneself a greater sense of responsibility for the state of the world, to reject open and hidden forms of pressure and manipulation, so that human life wouldn't be reduced to a stereotyped view of production and consumption. As Masaryk said, our national fate depends mostly on our capacity to fulfill our human mission.

RD:捷克社會生病了。更糟的是,它拒絕醫治。這種心態源自於大眾相信捷克永遠位於東與西的緩衝地帶。結果是極權主義無聲無息地回來了,這是非常危險的。語言反映一切,當民主消失時,才知道它不是日常,得靠一分一毫的爭取。我們必須持續維持爭取自由的戰鬥位置,這需要很大的付出。

東歐國家是存在於挫折中的,加害者與受害者變成一體。目前掌權的就是那些在1990年代資本主義化時期爆富的人,例如前斯洛伐克國安單位的情報員,包括現任總理巴比斯,他是前共產勢力、傲慢與寡頭政治的代表。在波蘭,保守的天主教會對政治有很大的影響力。這區域所有政治領袖都以匈牙利政客奧班·維克多為榜樣,而他則以普廷為榜樣。精神上,我們還是俄國的衛星國家。

我希望東歐還是能持續出現像馬薩里克哈維爾這樣的人道主義典範人物,前者是對社會懷抱同理心,後者是主張每個人都對世界與國家負起更大的責任感,拒絕隱形的操弄與壓力,不致淪為只剩生產與消費主義下的制式觀點。馬薩里克說過,我們國家的命運取決於我們對人道責任的實踐。

上句「我想念哈維爾」、下句「我也是」。本篇作者Filip Noubel攝於2019/08/21紀念布拉格之春的集會中。

FN:妳的作品常處理捷克社會的禁忌,例如二戰後猶太人與德國人的遭遇、女性所受的暴力、中國對歐洲價值的影響等。妳也公開捍衛移民、少數族群與性別弱勢者的權利,雖然有獲獎卻也被攻擊,或是被拒於主流文化之外。是什麼支持妳繼續公開針對這些議題發言?

RD:The only places where I can find an uncompromised freedom to speak and express my opinions are in my books and in the media of Western Europe. The Berlusconi syndrome, which allows the capture of media as a source of propaganda and “national values” is thriving in Eastern Europe. And the Czech politicians are under the spell of Beijing, they state that China represents a stable and harmonic society, and for us an indispensable economic partner. But my experience of China is that it represents what we imagine as a brutal police state. 

I believe in the novel, it can tell the truth. My main theme is dehumanisation. We belong to the human kind and I do not accept the views of “states”, of ethnic cages and superior gender. Surprisingly, my books act as a catharsis for many people. What matters to me is to correct the thinking and support people, who are sensitive, educated but have no voice, because of the arrogance of the powerful who shout louder. Those people must unite and demonstrate that a parallel way of life is possible.

In my novels I disclose what makes today's mentality. After 1945, the rule of law disappeared for millions of expelled Germans, so that the same thing could happen later to hundreds of thousands of other people. These are the moral consequences of massive expulsion that can be identified: if it is possible to punish a person because she or he belongs to a nation, then it is later possible to punish anyone for belonging to a specific social class or political party. The future will not look positively at the moment when the world introduced the notion of collective responsibility.

RD:唯一能讓我暢所欲言不受限制的就只有我的作品與西歐的媒體,雖然媒體的貝魯斯柯尼症候群—媒體成為所謂「國家價值」政策宣傳的管道—在西歐國家也很盛行。而在捷克,政治人物被北京催眠,相信北京是一個穩定和諧的社會,是捷克不可或缺的經濟夥伴。但我在中國的經驗是,這是一個殘酷的警察國家。

我相信虛構小說可以講真話。「去人性化」是我的主要議題,因為我不相信人類可以被國家的見解所取代,也不接受任何族群框架或高於其他人的性別。很意外的是,我的作品成為許多人宣洩的管道。對我來說,能夠改變觀點並支持需要的人,包括敏感、受過教育卻因為權勢的傲慢喧嘩而無法發聲的人,是最重要的。這樣的人應該團結起來,證明可以有不一樣的人生。

我的小說探討形成今天社會心理狀態的原因。1945年以後,由於缺乏適當的法律而驅逐了數百萬在東歐國家的德國人,這也在後來影響了數十萬其他族群的人。這項大規模驅逐的道德後果是可以討論的:一個人可以因為他的國籍被懲罰嗎?或一個人可以因為他的社會階層或政黨被懲罰嗎?在一個要求集體負責的世界裡,未來是不會樂觀的。

 

2019年8月21日在布拉格瓦茨拉夫廣場紀念1968年布拉格之春的群眾。牌子上Totalitu nechceme意為「我們不要集權政體」。攝影:Filip Noubel

FN:妳經歷過共產主義,所以很清楚沒有自由是怎樣的。至於捷克的年輕世代呢?年輕的捷克作家也討論這些嗎?

RD: Not for writers, and I don't understand why. Not even for the older generation. The majority of people behaves as if 1989 [the year marking the fall of communism] never happened. Havel is a world reference, his Charter 77 led to the creation of Charter 08 in China, but at home people mock him. Charter 77 was the first significant act of solidarity in the communist era, it represented the first awakening of a civic conscience. Today the “young comrades from the party” are attempting to build “capitalism with a socialist face“: it is the victory of the chosen ones, who operate outside the rules of competition and open tenders.

For me, the younger generations represent hope. In Eastern Europe, we have Mikuláš Minář, the student who founded the movement A Million Moments for Democracy, and in Slovakia we have the new President Zuzana Čaputová, who comes with a new political agenda and behaviour. It is sad that a young journalist and his fiancée had to die before people in Slovakia woke up, and started thinking seriously about their future. 

RD:年輕作家不會談這些,原因我並不清楚。連老一輩的作家都不談。大部分的人都假裝1989年什麼事都沒發生,哈維爾是世界史的參考用字。儘管他的七七憲章觸動中國零八憲章的誕生,哈維爾在捷克是被訕笑的。七七憲章是共產時代第一個凝聚力量且深具意義的宣言,是公民意識最早的覺醒。然而現在這些新世代的黨員只想建立社會主義面貌的資本主義,獲利者都是那些體制外的,而非參與公開競賽的人。

我認為年輕世代就是希望。捷克年輕學生Mikuláš Minář發動百萬民主時刻,斯洛伐克則選出了新總統查普托娃,帶來全新的作為與政治景觀。遺憾的是一位年輕的記者與他的未婚妻在斯洛伐克大眾覺醒並開始嚴肅思考自己的未來前慘遭殺害

2019 年4月15日Radka Denemarková 在哈維爾圖書館朗讀自己的小說。攝影:Filip Noubel獲受訪者同意刊登.

FN:妳對捷克與中歐民主最大的擔憂是什麼?

RD: We are now contemplating an essential question: do we want an open democracy or a closed society, freedom of expression or censorship, rule of law or a new form of authoritarianism? Society is a strange animal, with a lot of hidden faces and abilities. I know very well that the main concern shared by all on this planet is this: what to do with this human life? I visited China where the worst of capitalism married the worst of communism, and economically it all works perfectly, and everyone it admires secretly, yet without any human rights. This is where I see the danger for Eastern Europe. 

I know that the political process of a shared humanity finds itself now at one of its most critical moments. And it becomes clear that the future of humans depends on this kind of humanism that each of us tries hard to reach within the limits of our environment. Humans must come to their senses, and realize that solidarity, including in the context of climate change, is absolutely necessary. The hardest thing will be to fight nationalism, a narrow view of the world, and any limitations, but I am an optimist. This is my provocative hope, yet it is hope.

RD:我們現在要思考的核心問題是,我們要開放的民主還是封閉的社會?要言論自由還是要審查?要法治還是新形式的威權?一個社會就像一隻怪獸,有隱藏的樣貌與不為人知的能力。我很清楚這世界上大多數人關心的都是,生命該如何處置?我造訪過中國,看到最糟的資本主義與最糟的共產主義結合,結果是經濟可以成功運轉,人人稱羨,卻沒有人權。同樣的危機也發生在東歐。

我知道要在政治過程中找到普同的人道主義是非常困難的,但人類的未來取決於我們每個人如何在既有條件下爭取這樣的人道主義。人們必須清醒,體認包括氣候變遷這樣的議題都絕對需要共同的意志來克服,因此最困難的部份是要挑戰國族主義、偏狹的世界觀等各種障礙,但我是樂觀的。這是我帶刺點的希望,但確實是一個希望。

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